{"id":757099,"date":"2021-06-30T08:55:00","date_gmt":"2021-06-30T15:55:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/?p=757099"},"modified":"2021-08-03T17:38:32","modified_gmt":"2021-08-04T00:38:32","slug":"new-future-of-work-meeting-and-collaborating-in-a-remote-and-hybrid-world-with-jaime-teevan-and-abigail-sellen","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/podcast\/new-future-of-work-meeting-and-collaborating-in-a-remote-and-hybrid-world-with-jaime-teevan-and-abigail-sellen\/","title":{"rendered":"New Future of Work: Meeting and collaborating in a remote and hybrid world with Jaime Teevan and Abigail Sellen"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"577\" src=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-1024x577.jpg\" alt=\"Two women side by side, Abigail Sellen on the left and Jaime Teevan on the right, in black and white smile and look forward. Teevan is holding a cell phone.\" class=\"wp-image-757123\" srcset=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-1024x577.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-300x169.jpg 300w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-768x432.jpg 768w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-1536x865.jpg 1536w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-2048x1153.jpg 2048w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-16x9.jpg 16w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-1066x600.jpg 1066w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-655x368.jpg 655w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-343x193.jpg 343w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-640x360.jpg 640w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-960x540.jpg 960w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-1280x720.jpg 1280w, https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-1920x1080.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h2 id=\"episode-126-june-30-2021\">Episode 126 | June 30, 2021<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>For Microsoft researchers, COVID-19 was a call to action. The reimagining of work practices had long been an area of study, but existing and new questions that needed immediate answers surfaced as companies and their employees quickly adjusted to significantly different working conditions. Teams from across the Microsoft organizational chart pooled their unique expertise together under <em>The New Future of Work<\/em> initiative. The results have informed product features designed to better support remote work and are now being used to help companies, including Microsoft, usher their workforces into a future of hybrid work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode of <em>The New Future of Work<\/em> series of the podcast, Chief Scientist <a href=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/people\/teevan\/\">Jaime Teevan<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/people\/asellen\/\">Abigail Sellen<\/a>, Deputy Lab Director at Microsoft Research Cambridge in the United Kingdom, explore the dynamics of meetings and collaborations in the context of remote work. They specifically address the difference between weak and strong ties in our professional networks and why both matter to employee and company success. They also break down the phenomenon of video fatigue and share ways in which remote meetings may actually have the advantage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Learn more:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Project page and report: <a href=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/project\/the-new-future-of-work\/\">The New Future of Work<\/a><\/li><li>Future of Work digital magazine: <a href=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/worklab\">WorkLab<\/a><\/li><li>Guide: <a href=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/resilience\/hybrid-work-solutions?rtc=1\">Hybrid Work: A Guide for Business Leaders<\/a><\/li><li>Guide: <a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/clouddamcdnprodep.azureedge.net\/gdc\/gdcNr7VEG\/original\">Hybrid Workplace Flexibility Guide<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a><\/li><li>Publication: <a href=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/publication\/the-promise-and-peril-of-parallel-chat-in-video-meetings-for-work\/\">The Promise and Peril of Parallel Chat in Video Meetings for Work<\/a><\/li><li>Report: <a href=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/publication\/parallel-meeting-chat-guide-for-moderators-and-participants\/\">Parallel Meeting Chat Guide for Moderators and Participants<\/a><\/li><li>Report: <a href=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/worklab\/designing-the-new-hybrid-meeting-experience\">Designing the New Hybrid Meeting Experience\u2014for Everyone<\/a><\/li><li><a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/note.microsoft.com\/ww-registration-microsoft-research-newsletter-s.html?wt.mc_id=S-webpage_podcast\">Microsoft Research Newsletter<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a>: Sign up to receive the latest news from Microsoft&nbsp;Research&nbsp;<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Subscribe to the&nbsp;<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/podcast\"><strong>Microsoft Research Podcast<\/strong><\/a><strong>:<\/strong><br><a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/microsoft-research-a-podcast\/id1318021537?mt=2\">iTunes<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/www.blubrry.com\/feeds\/microsoftresearch.xml\">Email<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/subscribeonandroid.com\/www.blubrry.com\/feeds\/microsoftresearch.xml\">Android<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a>&nbsp;| <a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/6XNI6rGsLFYlWJxLItw4S0\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Spotify<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a> |&nbsp;<a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" href=\"https:\/\/www.blubrry.com\/feeds\/microsoftresearch.xml\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">RSS feed<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator aligncenter\"\/>\n\n\n\n<h2 id=\"transcript\">Transcript<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><em>ABIGAIL SELLEN (TEASER):<\/em><\/strong><em> There\u2019s been a lot of downside, obviously, to the pandemic\u2014<\/em>huge <em>downsides\u2014but as a researcher, it\u2019s been just this amazing opportunity.<strong> <\/strong>And I remember back in March, when we were all told that we needed to go home and pack up our stuff, I was with my colleague Sean Rintel, who\u2019s also a researcher in this area, and we suddenly looked at each other and went, \u201cWow, we need to study this.\u201d<strong> <\/strong>So not only did it give us this great opportunity to really explore in-depth how we could think about technology differently and think about how it interacts with people\u2019s work practices, but it allowed us to then sort of reignite interest around the decades of research that have been going on in this space.<\/em><strong> &nbsp;&nbsp;<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[MUSIC PLAYS UNDER DIALOGUE]<\/strong><strong><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>JAIME TEEVAN:<\/strong> Welcome to the Microsoft Research Podcast, where you get a front-row seat to conversations on cutting-edge technology. I\u2019m Jaime Teevan, and I\u2019ll be your host as we investigate how work practices have changed because of COVID-19 and what it means for creating a new and better future of work.\u202f<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[MUSIC ENDS]<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode of the series, we\u2019re exploring the \u201cCollaboration and Meetings\u201d chapter of <em>The New Future of Work<\/em> report published by Microsoft. Perhaps the most obvious change that information workers experienced when moving to remote work last year was that meetings changed pretty dramatically, and we\u2019re fortunate to have one of the authors of that chapter, Abi Sellen, here to tell us more about that.<strong> <\/strong>Abi is Deputy Director of Microsoft Research Cambridge, trained in psychology and human factors engineering.<strong> <\/strong>She started her career back in the early \u201990s trying to measure the difference between in-person meetings and video meetings just as videoconferencing was being rolled out in research labs.<strong> <\/strong>She was one of the first people to explore whether workplaces decked out with cameras and monitors and mics and speakers could replace in-person social interaction, and in the years since, she has both lived with remote technologies <em>and<\/em> studied them in a variety of research labs, including at Apple, Xerox PARC, HP Labs, and, currently, Microsoft Research. Thank you, Abi, for joining us today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>ABIGAIL<\/strong><strong> SELLEN:<\/strong> My pleasure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> So there is a lot to cover in this chapter, which you coauthored with Nancy Baym, Rachel Bergmann, Adam Coleman, Ricardo Reyna Fernandez, Sean Rintel, and Tiffany Smith.<strong> <\/strong>Um,<strong> <\/strong>let\u2019s start by looking at people\u2019s social relationships. What happened to our social relationships at work during lockdown?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Yeah, so our social relationships at work took a bit of a dive, and I think one of the things that happened was we all very quickly realized that friendships with people at work are actually really important.<strong> <\/strong>And we also quickly realized that the technology we had to hand was not really gonna be a good replacement for those kinds of relationships, and so there are really two kinds of social relationships that started to suffer.<strong> <\/strong>So the first one is what we sometimes call \u201cstrong ties,\u201d and that is the relationships that we have with the people that we work with on a day-to-day basis.<strong> <\/strong>They\u2019re the people that we know really well; we might sit next to them.<strong> <\/strong>You know, it\u2019s people that we, um, I guess, feel closest to at work because we\u2019re working towards shared goals.<strong> <\/strong>And we started to miss the fact that we couldn\u2019t just kind of look over to the next desk and ask a quick question or be aware of what people were up to and that this was a big problem.<strong> <\/strong>So that was the first thing; the strong ties were suffering.<strong> <\/strong>And the second one is what has been called \u201cthe water-cooler effect,\u201d which is really missing just bumping into people that we wouldn\u2019t normally seek out.<strong> <\/strong>So, you know, literally going to get a cup of coffee or get a glass of water in the shared kitchen and seeing people that you don\u2019t really know that well but you start to have, you know, chat and banter with those folks.<strong> <\/strong>And those weak ties often <em>become<\/em> the strong ties, and we\u2019ve started to miss that, too.<strong> <\/strong>So, you know, weak ties are really important because not only do they turn\u2014often turn into strong ties, but they\u2019re a source of new ideas, new knowledge, and this turns out to be really important to creativity and innovation.<strong> <\/strong>So the other thing that happened was we did a large study of I think it was 50,000 Microsoft employees during this past year of all-remote work and found that basically what most people were doing was doubling down on their strong ties in their network and letting their weak ties sort of wither away.<strong> <\/strong>So we were kind of, I guess, trying to get more work done, trying to be more productive, by doubling down on these preexisting networks, and the problem with that is that what that then starts to paint a picture of is a more isolated, siloed, calcified organization, and that\u2019s a worry because both these strong ties <em>and<\/em> weak ties go together to make up what we sometimes call \u201csocial capital,\u201d and social capital is the value that accrues from that interpersonal connection that we get at work, and that\u2019s important because research has found that it, it affects all kinds of things\u2014our personal happiness, our satisfaction, our productivity\u2014but also for organizations, it affects their ability to retain their staff, to innovate, and to create a cohesive working climate.<strong> <\/strong>That\u2019s basically a big worry for us, I think, and it\u2019s something that, uh, has been one of the main findings from this past year when we look at collaboration.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> How do you think we can support better weak ties?<strong> <\/strong>I know just like being stuck inside all the time has actually brought out the introvert in me, and now when the doorbell rings and somebody\u2019s there, it\u2019s actually terrifying to me.<strong> <\/strong>I can feel that myself, that my sphere has sort of closed in on itself.<strong> <\/strong>How do we broaden that back out?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Yeah, well, it\u2019s really tricky, um, given the tools that we have.<strong> <\/strong>So one of the things I noticed over the past year is that during meetings, at first, people were kind of focusing more on the task at hand.<strong> <\/strong>I think there was a bit of a panic about, you know, trying to be productive and to stay on task. And then as the year started to, uh, unfold a little bit and we got a bit more used to it, there started to be\u2014well, this is what I noticed anyway\u2014a bit more chitchat at the beginning and the end of meetings.<strong> <\/strong>There was more of an effort to do kind of social events using our meeting tools. Like here in England, there was a virtual pub event and sort of efforts to get fun things going with your colleagues.<strong> <\/strong>But they don\u2018t really seem to replace those water-cooler conversations because the irony is\u2014is that you still have to plan them, right, and what we\u2019re really missing is the <em>unplanned<\/em> stuff.<strong> <\/strong>So we were stuck in this situation where we\u2019re trying to plan for something that isn\u2019t normally planful, and we were being mindful of things that we usually take for granted, which is the fact that these things are kind of just things that happen, and they happen naturally when we\u2019re in a workplace.<strong> <\/strong>So I don\u2019t have really great answers for this so far, but just the fact that we now realize how important it is means that we can now start to be much more inventive about the technologies that we develop.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> Do you think there\u2019s been any differences in the strong ties we\u2019re able to maintain?<strong> <\/strong>I mean, I think about how much we\u2019ve been collaborating this past year even though we\u2019re\u2014<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> \u2014on different continents. You\u2019re very much a strong tie for me. Do you think there\u2019s been differences there?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s been really surprising for me, actually, and I think it\u2019s because we\u2019re sort of peering into each other\u2019s homes now.<strong> <\/strong>So we\u2019re much more\u2014you know <strong>[LAUGHS]<\/strong>, we\u2019re much more aware of\u2014well, we don\u2019t see in, you know, somebody\u2019s whole home space, but we see the cats coming in, we hear the leaf blowers outside the window,<strong> <\/strong>you know, we\u2014we see kids running in and out, and those conversations ultimately turn to what\u2019s happening in our homes and in our families.<strong> <\/strong>And at the same time, I think we\u2019re also much more mindful of people\u2019s larger lives, that the person that we\u2019re talking to isn\u2019t just a work colleague but might have a whole bunch of stuff going on at home, too.<strong> <\/strong>So I think we\u2019ve all been much more reflective about it. It\u2019s interesting, like, I\u2019ve gotten to know you much better through all of this.<strong> <\/strong>I\u2019ve made lots of new colleagues\u2014and I would consider friends now\u2014completely through the remote channels, but I also have, I think, new insights into the lives of people that I work with in the office and have worked with in the office, too.<strong> <\/strong>So it\u2019s not all bad.<strong> <\/strong>I think that, actually, it\u2019s made us all much more reflective about people\u2019s whole lives and the <em>place<\/em> of work in our lives.<strong> <\/strong>And as managers, too\u2014because I\u2019m a manager\u2014being much more mindful to ask about how people are getting on and how work plays out and how they\u2019re managing to get work done.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN: <\/strong>It\u2019s true. I love it when people\u2019s doorbells ring or their dogs bark or somebody interrupts them, or they have a big pile of laundry in the background.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[LAUGHTER]<\/strong><strong><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the posters on the wall and, you know, the\u2014the things that\u2014 the knickknacks in the background, which gives a clue to what people\u2019s lives are really about, and that\u2019s what work should be about to some extent, right, is actually enjoying the relationship with our colleagues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> So one of the things that you sort of hinted at earlier in the discussion of weak ties getting weaker and not bringing us necessarily new information or new things, um, I know you\u2019ve talked a fair amount about the impact that remote work has had on our ability to be creative and brainstorm and innovate and start new things.<strong> <\/strong>Can you speak a little bit more to that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Yeah.<strong> <\/strong>So that\u2019s another concern and something that has come up from the research in the past year.<strong> <\/strong>Many of the studies that we\u2019ve looked at\u2014and these aren\u2019t just with our own employees but, um, work that we\u2019ve done looking at knowledge workers from a variety of companies outside of Microsoft\u2014have shown that the hardest kind of collaboration to do is the collaboration that involves creative thinking, sort of big-picture thinking, things like being able to strategize as a team, to pivot as a team.<strong> <\/strong>So doing that kind of let\u2019s call it creative work is really hard to do remotely, whereas people seem to be getting along pretty well on the kinds of collaboration where you know what you\u2019re doing, there\u2019s a plan in place, you can kind of get on with stuff on your own or even as a team.<strong> <\/strong>But when it comes to those other kinds of meetings, like brainstorming meetings, which we would normally go into the workplace and, you know, scribble on the whiteboard or use the walls, put bits of sticky notes everywhere, you get a sense of the mood and the energy in the room, that\u2019s all really hard to do remotely, so that\u2019s a real challenge for us, and\u2014and especially if you cast your mind forward to what does that mean for industries like <em>ours<\/em>, which, you know, critically rely on the ability to innovate and to generate new ideas and to brainstorm.<strong> <\/strong>So there\u2019s not just the social capital that\u2019s at risk.<strong> <\/strong>It\u2019s our creative capital that\u2019s at risk.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[MUSIC BREAK]<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN: <\/strong>Turning now to remote meetings, why is it that we find remote meetings so exhausting?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Ah, yeah, that\u2019s a good question, and it\u2019s\u2014it\u2019s a complicated answer, but let me make a stab at it.<strong> <\/strong>So this is something that people have been struggling with for a long time, right?<strong> <\/strong>My early career, when I just graduated with my PhD, um, I think you said earlier was trying to get at what are the differences between remote meetings through video technology and face-to-face meetings.<strong> <\/strong>And there\u2019s actually been lots of interesting research that has come out recently as a result of the pandemic.<strong> <\/strong>So, for example, Jeremy Bailenson at Stanford has done some nice work in this area, you know, showing that\u2014this notion of kind of \u201cZoom fatigue\u201d or why is it so exhausting, why is it so fatiguing, to meet over video.<strong> <\/strong>There are a number of factors at play, like, um, you know, prolonged close-up eye contact with someone is really unnatural.<strong> <\/strong>There\u2019s a strain from having to see yourself constantly like you\u2019re looking in a mirror all the time and the fact that you\u2019re physically tied to one place.<strong> <\/strong>But I think there are other big challenges that we need to think about here.<strong> <\/strong>So, you know, one of the things we know about video calls, especially if they\u2019re\u2014not so much if it\u2019s one-on-one, but if there are a bunch of us on a call, it\u2019s hard to do turn-taking, and so turn-taking is that kind of like fine dance that we do in conversation with each other where, normally, one person talks at a time, we don\u2019t like long pauses, we don\u2019t like it when people talk over each other and interrupt each other, and we\u2019re very finely attuned to when a person\u2019s come to the end of their turn at talk or when somebody wants to <em>take<\/em> a turn at talk.<strong> <\/strong>We have really good skills at being able to do that turn-taking.<strong> <\/strong>And so one reason that it\u2019s difficult is poor audio. So if you have lag in your audio or you have a bad internet connection, that kind of undermines our ability to pick up those cues and to do that kind of fine-grained choreography. But we also know that when we share a room, we use the sights and the sounds that are around us to help us judge not just the ambiance and the energy in a room, but the attentiveness of people around us and a sense of when people want to take a turn or when people are listening.<strong> <\/strong>Um, so, you know, somebody leans in around the table next to you; that might indicate that they want to say something.<strong> <\/strong>You might hear that kind of sharp intake of breath by somebody at the table when they want to take a turn, or when somebody looks at you when they finish what they\u2019re saying, you might know that they\u2019re expecting you to speak next.<strong> <\/strong>Well, when we\u2019re remote, we just can\u2019t read those cues because we\u2019re bounded by this little box, right, and we have a single stream of audio, and the really informative gestures by our remote colleagues are outside of the boundaries of that little box, and the audio\u2019s all coming from a single speaker, so everything\u2019s watered down, which is a real problem.<strong> <\/strong>And then the flip side of that is we then have to know how to perform properly so that people know\u2014so we need to know how we\u2019re being seen or heard by other people, right?<strong> <\/strong>So we now need to <em>think<\/em> about how we\u2019re coming across, we need to <em>think<\/em> about how we\u2019re being perceived by others, and so who hasn\u2019t been in a video meeting where you say, \u201cOh, can you hear me?\u201d<strong> <\/strong>Uh, \u201cCan you see me?\u201d<strong> <\/strong>And then you have to think about, \u201cWhat can they see of me?<strong> <\/strong>How are they hearing me?\u201d<strong> <\/strong>And that takes work.<strong> <\/strong>So that\u2019s really exhausting.<strong> <\/strong>And the problem is as meetings get bigger, all of that gets worse, right?<strong> <\/strong>So I\u2019ve been doing various presentations over the past year to an audience, and I have no idea of how many people are out there, whether they\u2019re listening to me, whether they\u2019re doing their email, uh, you know, whether they\u2019re feeding their cat, making dinner, uh, just no idea.<strong> <\/strong>And\u2014and so we get this feeling also that we\u2019re kind of speaking into the void.<strong> <\/strong>So I think there\u2019s lots going on in these calls, but a lot of it has to do with this problem of not knowing how we\u2019re perceived and having to <em>deliberately<\/em> perform.<strong> <\/strong>And that\u2019s way different than what happens when we\u2019re sharing a room together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> Are there things about remote meetings that are <em>better<\/em> than in-person meetings?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Yeah, so I think one of the interesting things that\u2019s happened that our research has highlighted is the use of parallel chat during remote meetings, and, you know, some people don\u2019t like it \u2019cause they find it really distracting, but we\u2019re finding a lot of advantages, too, to parallel chat.<strong> <\/strong>So, you know, I talked about this turn-taking problem.<strong> <\/strong>One of the things we discovered was that, um, when we did this big diary study, hundreds of people in Microsoft reporting their experiences of online meetings, and younger women were saying that they actually found the parallel chat a good way of being able to take a turn at talk in ways that they wouldn\u2019t normally feel that they could.<strong> <\/strong>So it was sort of allowing a voice for these\u2014these folks that they normally would maybe struggle to have in a face-to-face meeting or in a large meeting.<strong> <\/strong>And then parallel chat was being used in all kinds of other interesting ways, such as people were sharing links and resources, um, you had a kind of nice record of the comments that people were making in a meeting, and there were all these other advantages that were coming out, and this was\u2014this was something new, right?<strong> <\/strong>We\u2014we started before lockdown not using it very much, and then it just really ramped up, and now, I\u2019d say almost every meeting that I\u2019m in now, there\u2019s parallel chat going on.<strong> <\/strong>And, actually, you\u2019re great at this, Jaime. <strong>[LAUGHTER]<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> I really like parallel chat. <strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> You do parallel chat really well. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> Have any of the things that you\u2019ve discovered through your research changed the way that you\u2019re doing meetings now compared to a year ago?<strong> <\/strong>I mean, so parallel chat\u2019s one example.<strong> <\/strong>Are there other things that you\u2019re doing differently?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Oh, yeah.<strong> <\/strong>So, like many people, I guess, I started off, you know, March of last year just setting up meetings for everything.<strong> <\/strong>Video meetings were replacing my one-on-ones, my small-group meetings, my large events, even my social events, and I was doing them one after the other.<strong> <\/strong>It was a relentless kind of <em>wave<\/em> of meetings that I was doing.<strong> <\/strong>Um, no breaks in between them.<strong> <\/strong>And, you know, added to all those interactional issues that I talked about, it was just the sheer volume of meetings that was becoming exhausting.<strong> <\/strong>And so very quickly, it sort of\u2014word got \u2019round the company, and the company was actually really good about reaching out and saying, you know, \u201cHow do we do this better?\u201d<strong> <\/strong>And we started instituting breaks between meetings; we started urging people to consider whether something wouldn\u2019t be better done in a different way, like through a chat or through an email, or, you know, being really thoughtful about people\u2019s time and the amount of time we were spending in meetings.<strong> <\/strong>So that did change, and I think it was pushed by all of us.<strong> <\/strong>And the other thing is that, um, well, I guess many people did this, too, but they were using video meetings to catch up with their family and their friends, and <strong>[LAUGHS]<\/strong> it was very soon that I just decided I couldn\u2019t do that either.<strong> <\/strong>I could not do one more quiz.<strong> <\/strong>And, um, so, uh, I think there was a sort of a pulling back, I\u2019d say, by about the summertime for me, but also our work group started to really pull back on that, and we became much more intentional about how we\u2014first of all, if we <em>needed<\/em> a meeting, what its purpose was, how we were gonna <em>run it<\/em>.<strong> <\/strong>So we came up with this little acronym called CHARM, and that <strong>[LAUGHS]<\/strong>\u2014it\u2019s a little mnemonic that helps you think about, right at the beginning of the meeting, what are the ground rules for the meeting.<strong> <\/strong>So \u201cC\u201d stands for \u201cchat.\u201d Are we gonna encourage parallel chat or say we don\u2019t want it \u2019cause it\u2019s too distracting?<strong> <\/strong>\u201cH\u201d is \u201chand raising,\u201d so how are we gonna handle questions?<strong> <\/strong>Um, do we want to use the hand-raise feature in Teams, for example, or just people put their real hands up or just jump in?<strong> <\/strong>\u201cA\u201d was for \u201cagenda,\u201d so, uh, do we have an agenda?<strong> <\/strong>Um, let\u2019s make sure that it\u2019s front and center if we do.<strong> <\/strong>\u201cR\u201d was for \u201crecording.\u201d<strong> <\/strong>Are we gonna record this?<strong> <\/strong>Is it OK with everybody?<strong> <\/strong>\u2019Cause sometimes we forget.<strong> <\/strong>And then \u201cM\u201d is \u201cmoderator.\u201d So another thing we saw over the course of the past year is that more and more meetings were appointing moderators so that they could look at the parallel chat if there were questions or just keep us on track and make sure everything was running smoothly.<strong> <\/strong>So <em>CHARM<\/em>, it isn\u2019t something that you have to do every time, but I think especially if a meeting\u2019s big or you don\u2019t know people in a meeting very well, it\u2019s good to kind of run through that in your head if you\u2019re running a meeting.<strong> <\/strong>So we started doing that, as well. Hopefully our meetings are more <em>CHARM<\/em>-ing now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[LAUGHTER]<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[MUSIC BREAK]<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> So you\u2019re in the UK while much of Microsoft is in the Seattle area.<strong> <\/strong>How has\u2014have meetings changed for you being in a different time zone?<strong> <\/strong>Is it easier or harder or just different?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s a really interesting one because, you know, the mother ship of Microsoft is over in where you are, Jaime, right?<strong> <\/strong>On the West Coast. And it used to be that we in the UK would kind of be the odd ones out when it came to joining a big meeting in\u2014in Seattle or in Redmond, and then when everybody went into remote working, it felt like much more of a level playing field, right, that everybody was now having to do this, and actually, that\u2019s kind of nice because we were all kind of grappling with the same issues, maybe more forgiving of the fact that maybe our internet wasn\u2019t working very well or whatever.<strong> <\/strong>We were being more mindful of, you know, people\u2019s schedules, I think, and being more intentional as I said earlier.<strong> <\/strong>So that was kind of good.<strong> <\/strong>The\u2014the thing that also happened, though, for me, was that more and more of my schedule was sort of being pushed into Seattle time, so, you know, an eight-hour time shift, so more and more of my meetings were happening later in the evening and kind of shifted that way.<strong> <\/strong>So one thing that we\u2019ve had to do\u2014and I\u2019ve said to my team\u2014is don\u2019t be afraid to push back because if you\u2019ve got a meeting at 11 in the evening, maybe they just need to be reminded that you\u2019re actually in the UK <em>or<\/em> that Cambridge is the Cambridge in England and not the Cambridge on the East Coast of the US. <strong>[LAUGHS]<\/strong> And so don\u2019t be afraid to say that.<strong> <\/strong>So, you know, we\u2019re never going to get around these time zone issues fundamentally, but we can be much more mindful, um, and I think we are being much more mindful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> Has the use of video been helpful with that?<strong> <\/strong>Like the sort of ability to attend meetings asynchronously.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Yeah, I\u2014I, um, I think that many of us are watching more recordings of meetings now, and that\u2019s actually quite handy. So it\u2019ll be interesting to see how that develops as, um, a new set of practices with people being able to\u2014to watch things back, and even, you know, thinking of ways we can ask questions maybe in advance of meetings or follow up afterwards as a way to kind of do catch-up.<strong> <\/strong>So that\u2019s another way in which we can look to, um, have more flexibility over our working lives. One big learning from all of this is that people really value flexibility for so many reasons, and our tools really need to reflect that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been in meetings where people will record their piece, too, so that if they\u2019re not going to be there, you can play that recording and sort of have\u2014<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Yeah.<strong><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN: <\/strong>\u2014them contribute.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Yeah.<strong><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> So what\u2019s going to happen to meetings when some but not all of us are back in the office?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Wow, that\u2019s a really big question going forward.<strong> <\/strong>Actually, we\u2019ve known for some time\u2014so there\u2019s been a long history of work in this area\u2014that these hybrid meetings, where you\u2019ve got some people in the room and some people dialing in remotely, exacerbate all kinds of asymmetries, right, so that remote people often don\u2019t have enough of a presence in a room.<strong> <\/strong>You know, they might not be represented on a display the way that they should be, like they might be really huge at the front of the room next to the slides, or they might not have any presence at all visually, that it might be hard to hear them.<strong> <\/strong>So there are lots of issues around presence, and I\u2019ve been in so many meetings\u2014and I\u2019m guilty of this, too\u2014just walking out of a meeting room and forgetting that the remote person is still on the line.<strong> <\/strong>You know, we have to be much more mindful of things like that happening.<strong> <\/strong>And likewise, you know, if you\u2019re remote, you might not see the activities around a whiteboard or the things that people are sharing with each other around a table, and the people who are in the room <em>and<\/em> the remote people both have\u2014have a responsibility to be reflective and intentional about how they\u2019re being seen and what\u2019s the best configuration in a meeting.<strong> <\/strong>So, for example, a really simple one is that if you have a remote person displayed somewhere in the room, try and get the camera that that person is being viewed through as close to that display as you possibly can so that when you turn to look at that person, they are seeing you look at them.<strong> <\/strong>I mean, that\u2019s just a really simple thing, right, and it\u2019s something that we all\u2014we all need to do with our home setups, too.<strong> <\/strong>So there are some simple things that we can do, but, you know, also best practice things.<strong> <\/strong>So if you\u2019re in a hybrid meeting, at the beginning of the meeting, make sure you introduce everyone; you make sure that when there are questions, that you always include the remote people to see if they have any input; and certainly, at the end of a meeting, make sure that everybody says goodbye, um, to\u2014to those people who may be disadvantaged and probably <em>are<\/em> disadvantaged by the fact that they\u2019re remote.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> What got you interested in studying remote work?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> So, um, when I joined the University of Toronto as a postdoc back in, uh, the early \u201990s, that was one of the first what are called \u201cmedia spaces\u201d that was set up, and a media space, as you said in the intro, is basically an experimental setup where everybody\u2019s office has a camera, monitor, microphone, and speaker, and the idea was to live the experience of remote work to see how we could play around with different configurations, different technological developments, to improve the experience of working remotely with one another.<strong> <\/strong>Because, actually, videoconferencing technology had been around since, well\u2014actually, I think it was originally the \u201950s and \u201960s\u2014there were, uh, picture phones, and the predictions back then were that, you know, these new technologies were going to mean the end of business travel.<strong> <\/strong>Well, that never happened.<strong> <\/strong>So come the \u201990s, we\u2019re still playing around with this, still trying to understand it, and we built these media spaces.<strong> <\/strong>So there was one at Toronto, where I was, and there was one at Xerox PARC, where I moved to the sister lab of Xerox PARC soon after that, and we had a media space there, as well, and we were able to really kind of live the experience of having all this technology in our offices.<strong> <\/strong>So that got me really interested in it, and then I started running experiments, trying to look at, for example, the mechanics of turn-taking in video meetings compared to face-to-face meetings, um, and trying to measure how conversations were different in those different conditions.<strong> <\/strong>And it turns out, it\u2019s really hard to find significant differences if you just look at things like, you know, how many turns people take, how long those turns are, how many pauses people take; it doesn\u2019t reflect people\u2019s real experiences of what those conversations are like.<strong> <\/strong>So I moved on after that to use different techniques.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> As somebody who\u2019s been studying remote work for decades, this past year must have been really interesting for you. Like what\u2014what has that meant for your research, to have the whole world go remote?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SELLEN:<\/strong> Oh, yeah.<strong> <\/strong>Huge. <strong>[LAUGHS]<\/strong> It\u2019s like this huge experiment, um, just there for the taking. And I mean, you know, there\u2019s been a lot of downside, obviously, to the pandemic\u2014<em>huge<\/em> downsides\u2014but as a researcher, it\u2019s been just this amazing opportunity. And I remember back in March, when we were all told that we needed to go home and pack up our stuff, I was with my colleague Sean Rintel, who\u2019s also a researcher in this area, and we suddenly looked at each other and went, \u201cWow, we need to study this.\u201d And we completely pivoted and started setting up a big experiment within Microsoft to study what was going on. So not only did it give us this great opportunity to really explore in-depth how we could think about technology differently and think about how it interacts with people\u2019s work practices, but it allowed us to then sort of reignite interest around the decades of research that have been going on in this space going back to the \u201980s, really. So that\u2019s been great to be able to refocus on some of the\u2014some of the things that have changed.<strong> <\/strong>Lots has changed, right?<strong> <\/strong>But some of the basic issues\u2014some of the fundamental things that go on in remote work have not changed, and so it\u2019s been great to be able to go back and revisit all of that and to see how we can now apply it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>TEEVAN:<\/strong> Thank you, Abi, for the amazing research that you do to make remote work better, and, uh, thank you also for your time.<strong> <\/strong>And thanks to our listeners for tuning in.\u202fWe hope you\u2019ll continue to join us as we explore the new future of work. You can learn a lot more about the research that we discussed today at aka.ms\/newfutureofwork.\u202fAlso, be sure to subscribe for new episodes wherever you listen to your favorite shows.<strong><\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In this episode of The New Future of Work series of the podcast, Chief Scientist Jaime Teevan and Abigail Sellen, Deputy Lab Director at Microsoft Research Cambridge in the United Kingdom, explore the dynamics of meetings and collaborations in the context of remote work. They specifically address the difference between weak and strong ties in our professional networks and why both matter to employee and company success. They also break down the phenomenon of video fatigue and share ways in which remote meetings may actually have the advantage.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":39507,"featured_media":757123,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"msr-url-field":"https:\/\/player.blubrry.com\/id\/78780085\/","msr-podcast-episode":"126","msrModifiedDate":"","msrModifiedDateEnabled":false,"ep_exclude_from_search":false,"_classifai_error":"","msr-author-ordering":[{"type":"user_nicename","value":"Jaime Teevan","user_id":"33975"},{"type":"user_nicename","value":"Abigail Sellen","user_id":"31112"}],"msr_hide_image_in_river":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[240054],"tags":[],"research-area":[13556,13554,13555,13559],"msr-region":[],"msr-event-type":[],"msr-locale":[268875],"msr-post-option":[243990],"msr-impact-theme":[],"msr-promo-type":[243996],"msr-podcast-series":[],"class_list":["post-757099","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-msr-podcast","msr-research-area-artificial-intelligence","msr-research-area-human-computer-interaction","msr-research-area-search-information-retrieval","msr-research-area-social-sciences","msr-locale-en_us","msr-post-option-podcast-featured","msr-promo-type-podcast"],"msr_event_details":{"start":"","end":"","location":""},"podcast_url":"https:\/\/player.blubrry.com\/id\/78780085\/","podcast_episode":"126","msr_research_lab":[],"msr_impact_theme":[],"related-publications":[],"related-downloads":[],"related-videos":[],"related-academic-programs":[],"related-groups":[643845],"related-projects":[717493],"related-events":[],"related-researchers":[{"type":"user_nicename","value":"Jaime Teevan","user_id":33975,"display_name":"Jaime Teevan","author_link":"<a href=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/people\/teevan\/\" aria-label=\"Visit the profile page for Jaime Teevan\">Jaime Teevan<\/a>","is_active":false,"last_first":"Teevan, Jaime","people_section":0,"alias":"teevan"},{"type":"user_nicename","value":"Abigail Sellen","user_id":31112,"display_name":"Abigail Sellen","author_link":"<a href=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/people\/asellen\/\" aria-label=\"Visit the profile page for Abigail Sellen\">Abigail Sellen<\/a>","is_active":false,"last_first":"Sellen, Abigail","people_section":0,"alias":"asellen"}],"msr_type":"Post","featured_image_thumbnail":"<img width=\"960\" height=\"540\" src=\"https:\/\/cm-edgetun.pages.dev\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/06\/Abigail_Jaime_1400x788_No-logos-960x540.jpg\" class=\"img-object-cover\" alt=\"Two women side by side, Abigail Sellen on the left and Jaime Teevan on the right, in black and white smile and look forward. 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